Official Luthiers Forum!

I recently got some Cardinal lacquer and am wondering any if any of you have specific recommendations for it's use and also about it's dry time before buffing. I usually wait a month to buff with other lacquers, but I've seen some claims that Cardinal is a little faster. Since cost, with Hazmat shipping on 4 gallons, some sealer, and some thinner, was nearly $85.00/gallon to me here in Hawaii I'm very interested in truly finding out if this is really any better than the Sherwin Williams I usually get here for $35.00/gallon. Also, just playing it safe, I bought some Cardinal thinner too, but wonder if anyone has had any problems using another brand good quality thinner. I've done 4 instruments so far, and the Cardinal does seem to be a bit of a different animal. Even the smell is different. Any comments , negative or positive are appreciated.Thanks.-Bob

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“ The meaning of life is to find your gift and the purpose of life is to give it away” Pablo Picasso

I do not use cardinal, but I use ppg thinners on all my lacquer regardless of brand.

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

I just started a thread the other day with the same question and the one thing that was recommended to me was to make sure to use their vinyl sealer as well. I'm looking forward to this stuff as well. On the phone, John Hall told me it's ready to sand in days instead of weeks.

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

I did try buffing a back after 7 days, but it was still too soft to easily get the scratches out. I'll try again after 14 days.

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“ The meaning of life is to find your gift and the purpose of life is to give it away” Pablo Picasso

I have not had problems with other thinners and Cardinal.

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Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from poor judgement.

I thin with Dupont 3602s thinner. I often spray on hot days and need to slow things down. The 3602s is a slow thinner. However I am not able to buff in 7 days. The Cardinal rep suggested it was because of thinner I was using and this seems right. I have been waiting 3 weeks and getting good results. I was using Mohawk but it is just too yellowing where the Cardinal is crystal clear.

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Michael F Smith
Goat Rock Ukulele
http://goatrockukulele.com

Based on that statement and some other things I have heard from people using the stuff leads me to believe the stuff is some sort of pre-cat lacquer. That would also explain the 7 day buff recommendation. If you want a pre-cat lacquer there are some really good ones around. Sherwood high build from Sherwin Williams has a good track record and is easy to work with. I have also used ML Campbell MagnaMax and it works fantastic. They are however different coatings than a traditional nitro.They do not yellow or age typically.

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

Mac (on the Cardinal booth at the Healdsburg show a few weeks ago) told us 2 weeks was fine.

Dave F.

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Cambrian Guitars

"There goes Mister Tic-Tac out the back with some bric-brac from the knick-knack rack"

They also have Hi-Bild in a conventional nitro lacquer (gloss #T70CT1). I haven't tried it, but I found that it is stocked at the local S-W store for cabinetmakers. It is about $30 a gallon.
The late Ted Davis got excellent results with S-W Moisture Resistant Lacquer (gloss #T70C20).

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John

I've got a couple of questions regarding the cardinal as well I thought I'd throw in here.

1) John Hall recommended using their vinyl sealer - should that go on bare wood or is it ok to spray it over a wash coat of shellac? I hate the idea of leaving an instrument completely white sitting around.

2) On the LMII site, they recommend shooting color in the vinyl sealer. Anyone do that or should I spray the color in the bottom coats of the lacquer?

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

Sealer should go on bare wood. It's job is tho form a bridge between the wood and the finish. Anything else in between these things is an opportunity for a film failure. The only time I have ever tinted a sealer was under darker opaque finishes..

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

I see a few of you are using SW Hi-Bild. I had been using that the past couple of years and it works just fine. Because of the things I've seen on the web, I wanted to try the Cardinal to see if it was better. Always have to try something if it might be better. 4 instruments into it, the SW was still easier to work with, but I'm getting better at it. I'm kind of hoping the Cardinal does not work out because I'd much rather pay $35/ga for the SW than $85/ga for the cardinal. Cardinal is a very different product and unlike any Mohawk/SW/Behlens/ or other lacquer that I've sprayed over the last 40 years. It sprays a dry coat, yes it's supposed to, and always has a mat look to it until it's buffed. Routes funny too. Routing off the finish under the fretboard and bridge leaves a feathered edge, unlike the clean edge I'm used to. That implies to me that the lacquer is softer, but it actually seems to be harder. If I could get it down to a 2 week buff time, I'd be sold on it. Not there yet. I'd still love to hear any feedback you have.

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“ The meaning of life is to find your gift and the purpose of life is to give it away” Pablo Picasso

Bob,

Interesting comments about the SW product and Cardinal. I have been thinking of trying the SW stuff. Been using water based but I think I might give Nitro a try.

With the SW product does it sound right to use z-poxy on the hardwood, then a coat of their vinyl sealer all over followed by the lacquer?

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

Joe,
I'm not an epoxy or CA fill guy. Had brief flurries with both, but returned to solvent based traditional fillers. I go down lots of paths, but always end up returning to the same one so far. Almost any filler works, if you learn to use it. The CA and epoxy are just a bit harder to learn IMHO. I had color saturation issues with the epoxy and adhesion Issues (I think) with the CA. However, since lots of builders use both, most likely I simply did not stick with either process long enough to figure it out. In the last year or so I've tried the Stew Mac waterbase Timber Mate fillers and they work to some degree. Easy to use, which means a lot. I'm currently trying Aqua Coat water base fillers and they also work to some degree. Truth is, "filler" is a misnomer of sorts. None of it actual just fills easily. You have to work with it and outsmart any of it to get to a decent end. And, then there is the issue of what is actually a good finish. I've been doing and looking closely at finishes for over 40 years now. In the early days I thought my finishes were good. The more you do, the more critical your eye becomes. There isn't 1 in a hundred builders that can really do a good finish, and I'm in the 99, not the 1. Nitro is a very forgiving finish. Reversible to the umpteenth degree, which makes it a finish of choice for many of us. Still, it's a long road to a good finish. By a good finish I mean one you can take out to the shop at night and look at in reflected low light and not see a myriad of defects. That's a tough one to accomplish. At the moment, if you have not had a lot of experience with nitro, I'd go with the SW lacquer. It's a bit easier to use than the Cardinal. Just remember it's at least a 30 day wait til' buffing with SW. No cheating! Going out to the shop now (8PM) to look at today's buff. Expecting the worst!

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“ The meaning of life is to find your gift and the purpose of life is to give it away” Pablo Picasso

Thanks Bob, very useful

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust